ATLS training

Fri Oct 13 15:13:47 BST 2006

  Rick, I just wanted to tell you that I did participate in the skills
stations at the ATLS in Boston's Beth Israel hospital.  I participated in
skill stations to the best of my training would allow me.  I truly have to
say, out of the classes that I have taken post paramedic school, this has
had the most impact on my knowledge base! 

  Dr. Gross, I have had similar situations as to where a medical
professional's have been on scene with me and it could go two ways;
	  #1, barking orders out are not well received by anyone.  That's
just human nature.  I can say with experience, that is a sure way to get
someone removed from the scene and keep them in the stands as an observer.
	  #2, If someone is maintaining an airway or performing CPR, or in
some way is helping out with ABC's or C-spine immobilization and they appear
to be competent at what there doing then I let them continue as I set up my
equipment.  I ask in the process of setting up my equipment what medical
professional they are in durrung process just, to attain with whom is
helping me out.   
   I personally, would always welcome a medical consult (and possibly
assistance) from a physician with particular knowledge of the situation on
hand.  They would of course, have to assume care of that patient and would
be in constant contact with our medical control physician and come for a
ride to the hospital in the rig.  (State wide medical protocols dictate
that)
	  My wife tells me "better to keep your mouth shut than to open it,
than look like a fool"  I cant imagine why she would say that to me. Maybe
she's onto something!
      Take care all,
	Anthony M. Caruso
	NREMT-P   

-----Original Message-----
From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]
On Behalf Of Moore, Rick
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:37 AM
To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
Subject: RE: ATLS training

Dr. Gross,
Possibly I am missing something here, but I have looked into ATLS on many
occasions from various providers and I have been told that I may audit the
course (as an RN or Paramedic) but that I will not be able to participate in
the skills stations or competency testing. If this is not correct possibly
the ATLS training programs need to refer to the ATLS manual. REM 

-----Original Message-----
From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]
On Behalf Of Ronald Gross
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:15 AM
To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
Subject: RE: ATLS training

Rick,
You are wrong - please refer to the ATLS manual.
RIG

>>> "Moore, Rick" <Rick.Moore at TriadHospitals.com> 10/11/2006 9:54 AM
>>>
Oh please!! A one weekend course is better than a multi year residency? Give
me a break! And by the way in that rural environment that your talking
about, the first responders won't be trained in ATLS, because
a)
they can't afford it and b) they aren't allowed to train in and perform the
skills portions if they do come up with the money. REM 

-----Original Message-----
From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]
On Behalf Of Juan Duchesne
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:53 PM
To: trauma-list at trauma.org
Subject: RE: ATLS training

ATLS save lives.......end of discussion guys!......this is not about a
certificate, audit, CME or waste of time.....this is about personal
commitment in doing what is best for patient care.......We need to stop this
attitude about what ATLS really means.........I will like to read any LEVEL
I EVIDENCE THAT ANY residency ED,SURGERY..... IS EQUAL OR BETTER THAN ATLS
TRAINING........if any question place YOURSELF OR YOUR FAMILY in a rural
environment where your first responder is not ATLS trained.......I HAVE BEEN
THERE!!!.....AND IS NOT FUN OR FAIR!........END OF DISCUSSION! Let's move
on. juan

Juan C Duchesne, M.D.
University of Mississippi Medical Center Assistant Professor of
Surgery/Trauma and Critical Care Louisiana ATLS State Faculty 2500 North
State Street Jackson MS 39216
>>> Rick.Moore at TriadHospitals.com 10/10/06 12:55 PM >>>
Since when is an off-duty physician who happens to be driving by or
otherwise in the neighborhood "duty bound" to respond and assist? 
REM 

-----Original Message-----
From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]
On Behalf Of Patrick Greiffenstein
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:42 PM
To: trauma-list at trauma.org
Subject: Re: ATLS training

I agree with Dr Duchesne.  ATLS is a basic skills course that is not very
demanding to take and would benefit ANYONE being involved with any patient.
Given the fact that we might come accross a trauma scene outside of the
hospital (I've counted three since I graduated med school four years
ago!) and the fact that we as physicians are duty-bound to respond, it is a
course that every physician should take in an ideal world.  One would think
that practicing MDs would be well acquainted with most of the basics covered
by ATLS.  As an ATLS instructor I can tell you that it is absolutely
frightening how many general surgeons and ED-program graduates, not to
mention orthopods, FP's, internists and others who have opted to take our
course that have clearly no clue what the basics are (this is AFTER several
hours of lecture on the subject).

I believe that too much rides on a smoothly-working trauma team and that
redundancy, when feasible, can avert disaster.  If everyone knows what
everyone else is supposed to be doing, things might be missed or overlooked
less often.  Given the stakes and the time-constraints, I think a little
weekend course twice every decade is a miniscule price to pay.

my 1.5 cent's worth

-Patrick Greiffenstein
Resident, General Surgery
LSUHSC, New Orleans
pgreif at lsuhsc.edu 

On 10/6/06, trauma-list-request at trauma.org <trauma-list-request at trauma.org >
wrote:
>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: ATLS for consultants... (Juan Duchesne)
>   2. Re: ATLS for consultants... (Ronald Simon)
>   3. Re: ATLS for consultants... (Jago Miloguz)
>   4. RE: ATLS for consultants... (Hotz, Heidi, RN)
>   5. Re: ATLS for consultants... (Ronald Gross)
>   6. Re: ATLS for consultants... (Ronald Gross)
>   7. NoM Spleen Returns (Bjorn, Pret)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Juan Duchesne" <JDuchesne at surgery.umsmed.edu><~!B*+R^&>> To:
<rfsmithmd at comcast.net>, <trauma-list at trauma.org><~!B*+R^&>> Date: Fri, 06
Oct 2006 08:59:51 -0500
> Subject: Re: ATLS for consultants...
> I strongly disagree with your statement  Dr. Smith. I work in that
> same enviroment you are describing were our ED staff refuse to do 
> ATLS, their explanation is that ED training (3-4 years) and recert (q

> 10 years) equalls ATLS (2 days q 4 years)......we are just asking 2
DAYS for cert.
> and one day for recert.!!!! how bad can that be for GOD
> sake!!!.............. This is not about MD ego's Dr Smith........this

> is very simple and clinically demostrated: ATLS DEFINITIVELY IMPACT
> PATIENT CARE!!....let all jump on the boat and work as a 
> team!........As for consultants even if they are not first responders

> to activation we still mandate they get their ATLS.
> juan
>
> Juan C Duchesne, M.D.
> University of Mississippi Medical Center Assistant Professor of
> Surgery/Trauma and Critical Care 2500 North State Street Jackson MS
> 39216
> >>> rfsmithmd at comcast.net 10/06/06 2:32 AM >>>
> I am a huge fan of ATLS but I am curious as to the rational for
> requiring consultants OR primary trauma providers to have taken
ATLS.
> How will this positively impact the care of the injured patient? 
> Hopefully the consultants will not be directing the resuscitation or

> initial evaluation of the patient. Conversely ATLS will not have a
> meaningful impact on the experience of trauma providers compared to a

> full residency in either surgery or emergency medicine.
>
> R. Smith MD
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Ronald Simon <Traumamd at nyc.rr.com><~!B*+R^&>><~!B*+R^&>> > We
are currently having a debate in our State Trauma Advisory
> Committee
> > about whether trauma related consultants (neurosurg, ortho, ent,
> > etc) should be required to have taken ATLS to care for a trauma pt.

> > The question is whether this should be part of the requirements for

> > trauma
>
> > center designation. No question that members of the trauma service

> > and
>
> > the ED should but what about the subspecialists? Sure its a good
> concept
> > but actually getting them to take it is another thing. What is the

> > practice of other trauma systems?
> > Thanks
> > Ron Simon, MD
> > Jacobi Medical Center
> > Bronx, NY
> >
> > --
> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your
> > settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your settings

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>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ronald Simon <Traumamd at nyc.rr.com><~!B*+R^&>> To: "Trauma &
Critical Care mailing list" < 
> trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:15:20 -0400
> Subject: Re: ATLS for consultants...
> The thoughts behind requiring consultants to take the course is for
> them to understand how we prioritize and why we may ask them to go 
> away and come back later.
> ron simon
>
> rfsmithmd at comcast.net wrote:
>
> >I am a huge fan of ATLS but I am curious as to the rational for
> >requiring
> consultants OR primary trauma providers to have taken ATLS. How will

> this positively impact the care of the injured patient? Hopefully the

> consultants will not be directing the resuscitation or initial 
> evaluation of the patient. Conversely ATLS will not have a meaningful

> impact on the experience of trauma providers compared to a full 
> residency in either surgery or emergency medicine.
> >
> >R. Smith MD
> >
> >-------------- Original message --------------
> >From: Ronald Simon <Traumamd at nyc.rr.com><~!B*+R^&>> >
> >
> >
> >>We are currently having a debate in our State Trauma Advisory 
> >>Committee about whether trauma related consultants (neurosurg, 
> >>ortho, ent, etc) should be required to have taken ATLS to care for
a

> >>trauma pt. The question is whether this should be part of the 
> >>requirements for trauma center designation. No question that
members

> >>of the trauma service and the ED should but what about the 
> >>subspecialists? Sure its a good concept but actually getting them
to

> >>take it is another thing. What is the practice of other trauma
systems?
> >>Thanks
> >>Ron Simon, MD
> >>Jacobi Medical Center
> >>Bronx, NY
> >>
> >>--
> >>trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your 
> >>settings or unsubscribe visit:
> >>http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> >>
> >>
> >--
> >trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your
settings

> >or unsubscribe visit:
> >http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Ronald Simon, MD
> Dir of Trauma/SICU
> Jacobi Medical Center, Rm 1213
> Bronx, NY 10461
> 718 918 5598 phone
> 718 918 5593 fax
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Jago Miloguz" < japrak at gmail.com>
> To: "Trauma &, Critical Care mailing list"
<trauma-list at trauma.org><~!B*+R^&>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:58:49
+0200
> Subject: Re: ATLS for consultants...
> well it would be ideal to have everybody who gets in touch with
trauma

> patient pass the ATLS but obviously it is quite irrational to wish, 
> but l think it should be officialy mandatory for all personal dealing

> with to intiative managment of trauma patients to pass ATLS(EM docs 
> and acute care and trauma surgeons).if every hospital has those docs

> with passed ATLS then patients would probably do just fine with 
> consultants not passing ATLS.
> just my opinion
> ante
>
>
> 2006/10/6, Ronald Simon <Traumamd at nyc.rr.com>:<~!B*+R^&>> >
> > The thoughts behind requiring consultants to take the course is for

> > them
>
> > to understand how we prioritize and why we may ask them to go away

> > and come back later.
> > ron simon
> >
> > rfsmithmd at comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > >I am a huge fan of ATLS but I am curious as to the rational for
> requiring
> > consultants OR primary trauma providers to have taken ATLS. How
will
> this
> > positively impact the care of the injured patient? Hopefully the
> consultants
> > will not be directing the resuscitation or initial evaluation of
the

> > patient. Conversely ATLS will not have a meaningful impact on the
> experience
> > of trauma providers compared to a full residency in either surgery

> > or emergency medicine.
> > >
> > >R. Smith MD
> > >
> > >-------------- Original message --------------
> > >From: Ronald Simon <Traumamd at nyc.rr.com >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>We are currently having a debate in our State Trauma Advisory
> Committee
> > >>about whether trauma related consultants (neurosurg, ortho, ent,
> > >>etc) should be required to have taken ATLS to care for a trauma 
> > >>pt. The question is whether this should be part of the 
> > >>requirements for trauma center designation. No question that 
> > >>members of the trauma service and
>
> > >>the ED should but what about the subspecialists? Sure its a good
> concept
> > >>but actually getting them to take it is another thing. What is
the

> > >>practice of other trauma systems?
> > >>Thanks
> > >>Ron Simon, MD
> > >>Jacobi Medical Center
> > >>Bronx, NY
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your 
> > >>settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >>http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >--
> > >trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your 
> > >settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > >http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Ronald Simon, MD
> > Dir of Trauma/SICU
> > Jacobi Medical Center, Rm 1213
> > Bronx, NY 10461
> > 718 918 5598 phone
> > 718 918 5593 fax
> >
> > --
> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your 
> > settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Hotz, Heidi, RN" <Heidi.Hotz at cshs.org><~!B*+R^&>> To: 'Trauma
&' < trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 09:11:36 -0700
> Subject: RE: ATLS for consultants...
> Ron,
>
> All of our EM physicians have completed ATLS once in their lifetime 
> (thus, we adhere to the ACS Gold Book criteria.) With regards to our

> consultants from Ortho and Neurosurgery, it is not a formal 
> requirement, but we have some of them become ATLS Instructors because

> they want to; believe it is their duty working at a Level I trauma 
> hospital; etc, etc. We have two orthopedic trauma surgeons that are 
> Instructors. We run two ATLS courses per year, so they only need to 
> teach once yearly.
>
> Our County trauma contract and State Regs do not require them to have

> ATLS.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Best of luck.
>
> Heidi
>
> Heidi A. Hotz, RN, Trauma Program Manager Department of Surgery 
> Cedars-Sinai Medical Center 8700 Beverly Blvd.
> Los Angeles, CA 90048
>
> Office: 310-423-8732
> Cell: 310-430-2649
> Pager: 310-960-6341
> Fax: 310-423-0139
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
> [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
> ]
> On Behalf Of Ronald Simon
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:16 PM
> To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> Subject: ATLS for consultants...
>
> We are currently having a debate in our State Trauma Advisory 
> Committee about whether trauma related consultants (neurosurg, ortho,

> ent, etc) should be required to have taken ATLS to care for a trauma

> pt. The question is whether this should be part of the requirements 
> for trauma center designation. No question that members of the trauma

> service and the ED should but what about the subspecialists? Sure its

> a good concept but actually getting them to take it is another
thing.
> What is the practice of other trauma systems?
> Thanks
> Ron Simon, MD
> Jacobi Medical Center
> Bronx, NY
>
> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your settings

> or unsubscribe visit:
> http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Ronald Gross" < Rgross at harthosp.org>
> To: <trauma-list at trauma.org><~!B*+R^&>> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006
12:20:12 -0400
> Subject: Re: ATLS for consultants...
> Ron,
>
> We require that ortho and neurosurgeons take ATLS at least once.
>
> Please note that the ACS COT "Optimal Resourses" document states
that,

> "At a minimum, orthopaedic surgeons on the trauma team should be 
> encouraged to successfully complete an ATLS Student Course."  The
same

> statement is repeated in the neurosurgical chapter: "At a minimum, 
> neurosurgeons on the trauma team should be encouraged to successfully

> complete an ATLS Student Course."
>
> Best wishes,
> Ron
>
> >>> Ronald Simon <Traumamd at nyc.rr.com> 10/5/2006 9:16 PM >>>
> We are currently having a debate in our State Trauma Advisory 
> Committee
>
> about whether trauma related consultants (neurosurg, ortho, ent, etc)

> should be required to have taken ATLS to care for a trauma pt. The 
> question is whether this should be part of the requirements for
trauma
>
> center designation. No question that members of the trauma service
and
>
> the ED should but what about the subspecialists? Sure its a good 
> concept but actually getting them to take it is another thing. What
is

> the practice of other trauma systems?
> Thanks
> Ron Simon, MD
> Jacobi Medical Center
> Bronx, NY
>
> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your settings

> or unsubscribe visit:
> http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Ronald Gross" < Rgross at harthosp.org>
> To: "Trauma & Critical Care mailing list"
<trauma-list at trauma.org><~!B*+R^&>> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:25:41
-0400
> Subject: Re: ATLS for consultants...
> The concept is to ensure that the subspecialists see, learn about and

> understand the overall picture of trauma care, how the concept of a 
> systems/team approach to trauma care actually includes them, and that

> they should incorporate it into their lexicon.......
>
> >>> <rfsmithmd at comcast.net> 10/6/2006 3:32 AM >>>
> I am a huge fan of ATLS but I am curious as to the rational for 
> requiring consultants OR primary trauma providers to have taken
ATLS.
> How will this positively impact the care of the injured patient?
> Hopefully the consultants will not be directing the resuscitation or

> initial evaluation of the patient. Conversely ATLS will not have a 
> meaningful impact on the experience of trauma providers compared to a

> full residency in either surgery or emergency medicine.
>
> R. Smith MD
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Ronald Simon < Traumamd at nyc.rr.com>
>
> > We are currently having a debate in our State Trauma Advisory
> Committee
> > about whether trauma related consultants (neurosurg, ortho, ent,
> > etc)
>
> > should be required to have taken ATLS to care for a trauma pt. The

> > question is whether this should be part of the requirements for
> trauma
> > center designation. No question that members of the trauma service
> and
> > the ED should but what about the subspecialists? Sure its a good
> concept
> > but actually getting them to take it is another thing. What is the

> > practice of other trauma systems?
> > Thanks
> > Ron Simon, MD
> > Jacobi Medical Center
> > Bronx, NY
> >
> > --
> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your 
> > settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your settings

> or unsubscribe visit:
> http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn at emh.org><~!B*+R^&>> To: <
trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 12:18:52 -0400
> Subject: NoM Spleen Returns
> Adult female MVC.  Left rib fx's 10-12, known splenic inj, read as 
> Grade I in spite of contrast blush (not intended as the thrust of
this

> thread).
>
> The patient was admitted for two nights, stable throughout, and 
> discharged with her cooperation and enthusiasm.  She was prescribed 
> house arrest for a week, drastically limited activity, and an office

> visit to follow.
>
> As fate would have it, on post-injury day 6 she suffered a sudden 
> sharp LUQ pain with what sounds like a brief vagal response.  She 
> reported immediately to her local ED, where another CT shows both a 
> persistent blush plus intraperitoneal hemorrhage (second image).
>
> At the local hospital, vitals were stable (she was in fact 
> hypertensive consistent with her medical history) and her labs were 
> unremarkable (H&H
> 12 and 35, roughly identical to previous discharge numbers).  She was

> admitted to the local hospital for observation, but her counts
slipped

> overnight (10 & 27), and so she was transferred back to us.  She 
> arrives stable and without any major complaints.  Even a little
hungry.
>
> Interested in what others would plan for her.  Observe?  Coil? 
Both?
> Other?
>
> Pret Bjorn, RN
>
>
> <<FirstImage.jpg>>
<<SecondImage.jpg>><~!B*+R^&>><~!B*+R^&>><~!B*+R^&>> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/> To change your settings

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